Stacy Mayer: Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Maximize Your Career. I'm your host, Stacy Mayer, and super excited this week to bring to you a very special guest. Minda Hearts is on today's episode, and if you haven't come across Minda's work - well, your life is going to be forever changed. Minda is the author of The Memo - What Women of Color Need to Know to Secure a Seat at the Table. And she is also the author of an upcoming book that comes out in the month of October. So, by the time you are listening to this episode, her book will be widely available; and run, don't walk to your nearest retailer to buy this book. Because if it's anything like her first book, it's going to be groundbreaking and life changing. I'm going to introduce Minda more formally here in a minute. But before I get into that, I want you to know that - as you have heard from me - if you've been a long-time listener to my podcast, you know my commitment to bringing more diverse voices to the leadership table, to actually give women the tools to get themselves promoted into senior executive leadership positions.

And when I first found Minda - and I actually think I heard her on her podcast called Secure the Seat, which I also recommend that you go and check out - it was very clear to me that she had a similar mission in that she doesn't just take the status quo. In the beginning of The Memo, she talks about 'lean in' and what's being taught in women's leadership, and how she really noticed that these tools didn't necessarily work for black women. And we're going to go more into that - why that is; but I want to say first, thank you to Minda for trusting me as being an advocate for black women, for women of color, to get them recognized as that seat of the table. Because as a white woman, I fall into my own traps and for her to just say yes to this podcast and for her to say yes to me, it's because she sees something in me, and she knows that I am a true advocate for each and every one of you. And so, I want to thank her for recognizing that and for helping me support my mission as well. So, thank you, Minda, for being here. 

Minda Harts: Happy to be here. Thank you so much, Stacy. 

Stacy Mayer: I'm going to give a more formal introduction of you. We already talked about her first book, which is The Memo. It's an award winning and bestselling book: The Memo - What Women of Color Need to Know to Secure a Seat at the Table. She is a professor at NYU Wagner and hosts a live weekly podcast called Secure The Seat. In 2020, Minda was named 'the number one top voice for equity in the workplace' by LinkedIn. And her latest book, Right Within - How to Heal from Racial Trauma in the Workplace - comes out on October 5th, 2021. And in this book, Melinda has interviewed more than two hundred women of color in diverse fields, and the common through-line 'racism had killed the careers they'd originally envisioned for themselves'. I cannot wait to get into this topic. Thank you so, so much for being here today. 

Minda Harts: Oh, I'm happy to be here - and absolutely - I am thankful that we have an advocate like you and excited to get into the conversation. 

Stacy Mayer: Wonderful. So, let's go back in time. What were some of your original secrets of success? What did you have to do differently in your own career to start to elevate your own leadership and get to that next level yourself?

Minda Harts: Yeah, that's a great question, Stacy. You know, I think about some of my missteps or in my career and one of them, I have to start with a misstep because I was like many women told when you enter the workforce, 'just work hard and keep your head down'. And when you're keeping your head down, that means that not a lot of people may know what you're doing. And so, I realized that I could be doing the best work possible. But if nobody, if the right people don't know what I'm doing, then how am I going to elevate or climb up the ladder? And so, once I realized that I have to work hard, but I also have to articulate my value and quantify my worth and also build relationships with people so that those who are in the rooms that I'm not in are speaking my name or considering me for opportunities. So, I'd say the secret to success is when I finally stopped having my head down and I looked up and I got out of my office - in my cube - and I started building relationships so that others could know what I was doing so that, you know, I often say success is not a solo sport. We can do all the things by ourselves, but you, but you need other people as well. 

Stacy Mayer: Yeah, absolutely. And so, I totally see this playing out. You know, most of the women when I first meet them, they're definitely head down. They're doing their work. They think a promotion is a reward for their hard work. And then at the end of the day, they're not getting recognized, and they wonder why they feel unsettled. But here's a unique...I'm assuming that there's a twist to your story because you didn't just come head up and say, 'okay, I'm going to build relationships, I'm going to climb the corporate ladder'. I think you came head up and you saw something. So, tell us a little bit more about what it was that you saw once you pulled your head out of the weeds, once you actually started advocating for yourself and building those relationships. 

Minda Harts: Yeah, you're absolutely right. It wasn't - I didn't just wake up, and all of a sudden, the heavens and seas parted and there I was. But what I did realize is - really it was initially out of frustration because I would see some of my counterparts excelling and getting opportunities, and I was like, 'Wait a second -on paper, they're not doing half as much as I'm doing'. And so, I was really frustrated because I couldn't figure out how they were getting ahead and I wasn't. Because I thought that the workplace worked - like many of us - a meritocracy. If you work hard, you get the prize. I realize that that isn't always the case, but what I realized was what I looked at, what they were doing and what I wasn't doing. And that one thing was building the right relationships. And so, I happened to - at that time - work on the floor with the second most senior person at our company. And so, I didn't know him, but I would see him periodically. And then I realized that, okay, I have an asset here. He's on my floor. A lot of my fellow colleagues don't have that access, so let me start to have some kind of face time. Let me start to build a relationship with him. Let me start going to the after-work activities. Let me start going to the breakroom birthday parties, because I needed people to know about what I was doing. And I'm very much an introvert, Stacy, so I had to push myself to do these things. I realized that I didn't have to be the life of the party. 

I just had to maximize those opportunities. So, for example, let's call this gentleman Steve. When I would see him in the elevator, I would no longer - before when he would say, 'Hey, Minda how's it going?' I'd say, 'Oh great', and I keep staring at the elevator doors. But when I'd see him other times, once I got my head up out of the cube, I said, 'Oh, I'm doing great, Steve. I'm working on these really great projects. I'd love to tell you about them sometime'. And then I started to build those opportunities. When I'd see him in the hallway, I would talk a little bit more about my work. And eventually I asked him for 15 minutes of his time because I let him know that I do want to excel up the ladder. And so, we started to build this relationship, and when there was an opportunity, he considered me because he knew what I was doing. He knew the work I was doing. And lastly, I'll say Stacy, it was just almost like everything aligned because I was doing that maybe six to eight months and I didn't know the outcome. But I knew that there had to be a better outcome than what I was doing before. So, when Steve was in one of his all staff, one of his senior leadership meetings, there was an opportunity in a territory that I covered. He said, 'I think Melinda should handle this account.' Now, had I not been having those interactions, he never would have known that that was in a region of mine. But it worked out and the rest is history. So, you know - strategize, strategize, strategize. 

Stacy Mayer: That's awesome. I love that story so much. That's really great. You and I are kindred spirits. So, tell us about the transition into advocating for your own career to advocating for other women and their careers. So how did you get started in writing The Memo, and what inspired you to begin doing this work? 

Minda Harts: Yeah, you know, it goes back to another pain point I was experiencing, and I realized that most of the time in my previous life, I was the only - either only woman, only black women - only woman of color in the room, and I started to wonder why that is. At first, I just started to tell myself that that's just the way it is. And I realized that if I'm feeling this isolation, if I'm feeling micro- or macro-aggressed, then there's got to be other women who feel the same way I do. And we don't have to just accept that this is the way it is. What if we change the dynamics? Maybe not just one of us at the table, but what would it look like if five or six or... And really, I just realized that there were so many great women that came before me, and I'm a direct beneficiary of their courage, of their voice. And I thought, who am I going to leave my courage for? Who's going to be a beneficiary of my courage and my voice? And that's when I started to think about ‘how do we make the workplace work for everybody’, not just a select few. And it really led me on this journey to writing The Memo because I realized that, yes, women experience inequality in the workplace. But when you look at who's affected the most, women of color tend to be left out of the career narrative. And so, I wanted to say, 'Hey, there's more women than what we're focusing on. And so, let's talk about intersectionality more.' 

Stacy Mayer: Well, let's talk about it a little bit more. So, what are some of the reasons why you think that women of color in particular are left out of the narrative? 

Minda Harts: You know, I think a lot of reasons. But I think it's easier for most of us to say 'women in the workplace'; but when we kind of pull back the cover, oftentimes we're really focused on white women and then anybody after. And so, I think that that just - that's the way society has kind of conditioned all of us. Because even when I think of a woman, sometimes I don't automatically think - I think of white. If you say, man, woman, I think about white man, white woman. And so, because you see that on TV, you see that in the 'about us' pages, you're just so inundated with one particular demographic that oftentimes you're not thinking, 'Well, what does it look like if there were more of us?'. And when I looked at companies about us pages, when I looked at leadership, a lot of companies were saying diversity is important, but yet you didn't see that demonstrated. And I thought, okay, well, there has to be some accountability to say 'yes, this is important for women, but it's important for all women', not just a select group of women. And so, for example, 1 in 5 white women will be advanced to the C-suite, whereas 1 in 25 women of color. And so that doesn't necessarily mean that there's not - There's only a select few, of women of color. We just don't have access to the opportunities as some of our counterparts. And so, I just really wanted to shed a light on that because the more we know, the more we can find solutions that help everybody. And so, I think it's important just to expand our career narrative and our language so that we're being more inclusive. 

Stacy Mayer: And you did. So, The Memo came out in 2019, and I feel like it just skyrocketed. It blew up. Was it even more successful than what you imagined? 

Minda Harts: Absolutely. I would say that I wasn't surprised, I was very surprised. Because - maybe your listeners don't know is that  I had very few followers. I was not popular or famous - any of those things. I just took a piece out of Toni Morrison's book - she says, 'Write the book you want to read'. And I wanted to write a book in which women of color were centered in the career narrative so that our counterparts can also help us create more inclusive work environments if they know what we're experiencing. So, all I had, Stacy was my story, and I, at the time, I didn't know if that was enough. But what I realized was, we all have a voice. We just have to decide how we want to use it. And that's for all women, all listeners. We all have a voice. And because of just some of the things that were happening in our world - a syndemic - multiple pandemics at once, it just amplified the work that I was doing in a really special way, and I'm excited. My hope was that black and brown women would read The Memo, but my real hope, too, was that our allies and champions managers and leaders would read it too, because then we really can get to some solutions. 

Stacy Mayer: Absolutely. When I read this book, it felt refreshing. So, one of the biggest differences that I know in my groups that I support is that the women of color, they don't have difficulty. And this is a generalization, of course, but they tend to be very ambitious. And they're like, 'You know, I want a C-suite title. I want more pay. I want equal pay.' And they are willing to say that. And the reason why I point this out is because I'll have the white women in the room - It takes a little bit encouraging "do you want it?" -  'well, titles are not important'. And so again, it's a generalization. But then - so if it's not about ambition and it's not about the desire, and they certainly have the willingness to put themselves out there to have those conversations, they hear suggestions like the beautiful ones that you gave us at the beginning of this episode where they're like, 'Okay, build those allies, build those advocates'. So, they're doing all of that work. Why is it still so challenging for them to get ahead? What's actually happening for them? 

Minda Harts: I think you hit it on the head. The ambition - it's not lack of ambition. It's actually an opportunity gap, in my opinion; because most women of color, most black women have plenty of access to mentors - but we are under sponsored. I think about the times in which, in my career, where I had the opportunity to advance - it wasn't because I worked the hardest or had the most productivity, it was because somebody with influence used their privilege to help catapult my career. And oftentimes we just don't have those sponsors like some of our counterparts do. Because let's be honest, Stacy, most of the time, what tends to happen - unconscious or consciously - is that we gravitate toward people who look like us or remind us of our younger selves. And if you're one of the only, you don't often have the privilege of having a manager that looks like you or a mentor that looks like you. And so sometimes we're not thought of for those stretch positions and those sorts of things, even though we are articulating that. But when you don't have the access to the opportunity, then it really does create this glass cliff, if you will. 

Stacy Mayer: Glass cliff. Tell me about that. 

Minda Harts: Well, you know what ends up happening I think - with women of color in particular - is when we do get an opportunity to lead and this is I find this historically (but don't quote me on this), but I have seen it happen at some companies. When we do get advanced, it's because something bad has happened. There's been some crisis. Black Lives Matter, whatever. And now they're like, 'Oh, let's just put a woman, or let's put a woman of color in this position to fix everything'. And it's unfortunate that a lot of companies think that 'Oh, well, when some crisis happens, just throw a woman in it' because that'll fix everything. And that's not being thoughtful. That's not being equitable. What about all the women that are doing really great work just don't have the opportunity for that. And so, I think that it's really incumbent upon those who are already at the table, to really think about who's missing and what opportunities can we provide. And this isn't charity. This is saying, 'Wow, okay, we are constantly hiring the same type of person - they identified this way. What would it look like if we interview a diverse slate of candidates so that we make it equitable?' And I think that the demonstration for equity is what has been missing, and I think that is hurting a lot of women of color in the workplace. 

Stacy Mayer: So, the demonstration of equity and then the representation - is that what you mean, or how it actually works? 

Minda Harts: Yes, exactly. So, I think that it's being talked about. So, we're using the right language, but we're not demonstrating the action. So, it's a lot of talk, but we don't often see it. If you think about the companies that said 'Black Lives Matter' last year and you look. If you were to go and look at their About Us pages or look at their language and their job descriptions, not a lot has changed. And I think that again, it's the accountability, but black and brown women, women, we can't do it by ourselves. We need those people who are in these positions to be more self-aware and emotionally intelligent about who's being promoted, who's being advanced and who's being retained. 

Stacy Mayer: And I also appreciate resources like the work that you're doing with The Memo, because it allows the conversation to open. Because I think that there is this desire to...when you don't understand something to not talk about it, to shy away from it. And so, having resources like this that really just opened the door that say, 'Hey, let's talk about this, why aren't the numbers increasing? Why aren't their About Us pages changing?' And so, it really opens up that door for that dialogue, which is going to encourage leaders at the top to really question it and do something different. So, I really value having these open conversations. 

Speaking of - so now it's not necessarily a different turn with your second book, I think it's a continuation. It seems like a much deeper dive, actually, to what you use the word racial trauma and to what is really being activated in the women as they try and accelerate their careers. And plus, you've done it in this beautiful way, interviewing two hundred women of color. And I want to hear more about this book. I'm so excited for it to come out. 

Minda Harts: Thank you, I am so excited too. You know, I don't know if I could say this as the author, but I did love The Memo, but I'm in love with Right Within - like I feel like it's the big sister to The Memo. And if you haven't read The Memo yet, you could still jump right into Right Within. What I realized after writing The Memo, Stacy, is that there's a lot of harm that's been caused in the workplace, and you can't move on without dealing with the pain. So, for example, my career, I mourned the career R.I.P. to the date where I had to leave my dream job that was 2013. I was the only black woman and the only woman of color in my department; and I was being racially aggressed every day I went to work. And I could no longer stay there. I mean, it was affecting my mental health. It was affecting my work everything. And when I tried to speak up to try to get some help from colleagues or management, I was met with, 'Well, this is just how it's going to be. If you don't think this is the right place for you, then you need to find a new place to work.' 

And I realized that that's painful. When I left - I left. I put that trauma in my bag, and I went to another job, but it didn't mean that pain wasn't still there. That I wasn't triggered when I went into a new workplace thinking that I might encounter the same thing. And so, I think that we don't talk about the workplace trauma, the harms that impact many of our careers in our personalities. Dr. Martin Luther King said, 'racism distorts the personality'. I was in my former life for 15 years. There's not a day I didn't go to work where I wasn't micro- or macro-aggressed. That eventually catches up to how you see yourself. You can't bring your authentic self to work if you're continuously being harmed. And I talk about that and how we can move forward from that pain. But also, we have to partner with our managers who are willing to learn how to be committed to racial equity in the workplace and not continuously retraumatize their employees. So, I really dig deeper into what that looks like. 

Stacy Mayer: Yes, this level of accountability - because I think this is it could be somewhat wishful thinking - but I think what a lot of managers are noticing is once they realize what they're doing, they are willing to do something different. I mean, you know, benefit of the doubt. There are certainly some managers that are not interested at all. And it sounds like in your position in 2013 you were very much making them aware of what was happening and there wasn't the interest to change. But I think that if we can just start there, which is opening this dialogue, having this conversation to say, 'Look this, this does matter'. And to your point, I love, love, love that you're using the word trauma because I talk about PTSD in the workplace all the time. Anywhere from daily microaggressions that they may not have even been aware that were happening to having that really terrible boss that shut them down every single day; and they take that PTSD with them into the next role, and really dealing with that situation because it makes it less about something that we did wrong, like you said, we internalize it. We bring that trauma with us. And so, what are some of the ways that we can start to work through the trauma? And what are some of the - are the tools offered in the book as well? 

Minda Harts: Yes, I have a lot of frameworks and tools within Right Within because I feel like we can't change every person in the workplace, but we can affirm ourselves first. And then everybody else. You know, oftentimes Stacy... 

Stacy Mayer: You said we can affirm ourselves. 

Minda Harts: So, as I was saying, we can affirm ourselves first and oftentimes when you are one of the only or one of few, you don't have anyone to affirm that that was in fact, racism, or sexism.

Stacy Mayer: I'm often the first one who points that out for them. 

Minda Harts: So, you're like, 'Did I make this up? Is this really happening?' And so, you create this paranoia really - it may be happening, but it might not. And if I was in a really racially charged environment, then I get a new job. It may not be there, but I now have that trauma with me. I feel like everything, at every corner. It's almost like those scary movies. You're like, where I'm peeking behind every corner because I know what's going to be here. But it may not. But I have been so traumatized, and now my manager might be wondering, 'Well, what's her problem. Why is she acting so defensive' or whatever the case? And they may not be emotionally intelligent to know that 'oh, maybe there's something that they've experienced at past workplaces. 

Stacy Mayer: 'She needs to speak up more'. No - there is a reason. If she's not doing that, it's because of some reason. And so yes, maybe she needs to see that this environment is not as toxic as the previous one, so that she can speak up more. 

Minda Harts: So, it's just important. And then if you do have a situation that's happening at this new team that you're on - feeling comfortable to be able to address that with your manager, and to your point, with your manager not dismissing your claims. Two things can be true at the same time. You may not be experiencing racism or sexism as a manager, but someone on your team might. So how do we do that? And in this new book, I also have a manager's pledge where I'm asking every manager to commit to equity for everybody on their team. Because it doesn't just benefit women of color or women. Anybody who feels like they're on the margins. 

Stacy Mayer: How do we commit to it? What do we do? 

Minda Harts: Well, I'm just going to read you a couple of points. I haven't shared this, but this is from the manager's pledge -just for people to think through how you can commit to equity. A couple of the bullet points is "I will acknowledge that I have biases that I need to understand and reconcile'. Another one is 'I will commit to engaging in courageous conversations. They might sometimes be difficult, but I know they are necessary to create an inclusive workplace.' And one of the last ones I'll read to you is. 'Even if I make a mistake, I will commit to the daily practice of being a better manager who is committed to equity for all.' And I think that we have to be committed and we can't be defensive. We have to put our egos out of the way because that's the only way we're going to make the workplace work for everybody. 

Stacy Mayer: It's not personal. And so that's why I like this commitment because it's, 'I'm not bringing this up to you because you're a bad person. Because you did something wrong.' It's admitting to not knowing. It's admitting to not being perfect, to being willing to engage in the conversation. I love that so much. It's so good. So, another thing that kind of comes to mind since you interviewed 200 women inside of this book, were they difficult to find? 

Minda Harts: The stories were not difficult at all. 

Stacy Mayer: This is my assumption - I have a feeling that once this book comes out, there's going to be a lot more right behind it. 

Minda Harts: Yeah, I'm certain. I mean, I talked to women who have taken a legal route because they've experienced so much racial discrimination inside the workplace. I've talked to women who are staying in toxic environments because that's where they are in their life, and this is to get to their next career goal. This is how they have to figure out how to make that toxic environment work for them till they get what they need out of the situation. I've met with - I talked to women who experienced a lot of depression. They're still experiencing anxiety and they left the workplace, and some are now working for themselves - forced entrepreneurship. I never intended on being an entrepreneur or an author, but I was forced out of my job in a sense, or I decided to leave because I knew that I could no longer just survive in that environment. And so again, realizing that there's a lot of pain when you have to walk away. And it's unfortunate because a lot of those bad characters are still in their positions. They were never held accountable and there've been many women who've come behind all of us and are experiencing that same workplace. We don't have to normalize that. And so, it was heartbreaking, but it was also freeing to be able to finally tell their stories. 

Stacy Mayer: Do you have a hashtag that goes with this book yet? I was thinking about #me too. You know, something like that, but I just have a feeling all the stories are going to come out of the woodwork. But is there anything like that associated with it? 

Minda Harts: Not yet, but if your hashtag #right within, I'm going to get people to try to tell their stories because we haven't been given permission or believed. It's a place where a lot of people still feel uncomfortable talking about that pain. Because oftentimes we just say, 'Oh, well, this is just the way it is' and we sweep it under the rug. But we can no longer do that if we're creating more equitable workplaces. 

Stacy Mayer: Exactly. That's why I asked because the #MeToo movement was so powerful. And just to be able to give women the ability to share their stories without judgment. And so, it was just clear, like it was just like, 'Oh, I have had this happen to.' And so, when we're able to see a book like this and to see that it's not, again, it's not personal. This is something that happens to other women. And then that way we can actually make an informed decision about what we're going to do different going forward. So, I really am just so thrilled that this is coming out and look forward to seeing you're creating a movement, and where it's already in motion. So, I'm really glad. So, what kind of - as we kind of close out here - what words of advice do you have to a woman who's trying to advance her career? Anything else that you want to add to this conversation? 

Minda Harts: The one thing I would say, another piece of the puzzle that really helped me on my road to success, I guess you could say, is investing in myself. You are your best asset. I think sometimes when we've been missed over for the promotion or we didn't get the raise that we asked for, sometimes we start to think, 'is it me'? And when we function in that way, then nothing good comes of it. And so, continue to invest in yourself. Remind yourself who you are, what you've done so far to get here. And if there's other tools that you need in your toolkit to be even more amazing, then don't be afraid to invest in yourself to get those tools and get that access. And if necessary, maybe the table that you're at is not right for you, but it doesn't mean that you're not right for the position. 

Stacy Mayer: Yes, exactly. Thank you so much. So, Minda, how can we find you? I will link to both of your books in the show notes, but what are other ways that we can start learning more about you if we're interested in this work? 

Minda Harts: Yes, I'm so excited. Thank you again, Stacy, for having me. If you go to MindaHarts.com, you'll find all my social assets. We're also running a manager's book club in November, so if you're interested in reading Right Within, and you still need some help unpacking, I'm partnering with Dr. Nika White. And she's a DEI consultant, and so we're having a session together so you can go to my website - you can check all that out. 

Stacy Mayer: Oh, wonderful. Definitely will. Well, thank you so, so much for being here today. I really appreciate it, and I know my listeners do as well. Thank you for opening the door to this conversation. Very important.

Minda Harts: Thank you.