Ep #38: How to Embrace and Elevate Diversity in the Workplace with Minette Norman

Stacy Mayer: Hello, everyone! Welcome to another episode of Maximize Your Career with Stacy Mayer.

I am so excited about today's guest. Today I am bringing on Minette Norman. I met Minette, oh gosh. I think it's probably been maybe seven years ago. I used to work for one of the Bay Area's premier women's leadership organizations called Platinum Exchange. And I will link to that in the show notes.

Minette was actually a student of Platinum Exchange in one of the first or second cohorts back at the very, very beginning stages of Platinum Exchange. And then she went on to rise the ranks of leadership at the company that she worked for called Autodesk. We'll talk more about that organization and the wonderful work that they themselves are doing for diversity in leadership. But I actually met Minette when she came into Platinum Exchange as one of the panel speakers, and she was also a mentor for many of the women who came through that program. So I had heard about her. She was legendary in the program, in her work with women in particular, in helping them continue to advance their careers through executive leadership.

Here is Minette's official bio. Minette Norman spent 30 years in the software industry starting as a technical writer and ending up as the vice president of engineering practice at Autodesk.

Throughout her career, she tapped into her passion for connecting with people to build engaged and innovative teams who leverage their diverse perspectives, cultures and experiences. Today, she has her own consulting practice, helping companies develop inclusive organizations in which diverse teams can leverage their differences to achieve breakthrough success.

She's coming off fresh of one of her fabulous keynote speeches just yesterday. And so she's got so many wonderful ideas to share with us. And let's just dive right into the interview. Thank you Minette. Thank you for being here.

Minette Norman: Thank you for having me, Stacy.

Stacy Mayer: This is so, so great. Minette so much fabulous wisdom to share. And I just want to get started with your personal secrets to success. So you started out, what did it say here, as a technical writer moving up to Vice President of Autodesk? And and just tell us about that journey for yourself and what were some of the main pivotal points that really helped accelerate your career?

Minette Norman: Yeah, I did like 10, 12 years as a technical writer in various, I think I worked at four or five different software companies, and I really liked that work. And then when I was at Autodesk, I joined Autodesk in '99 as a technical writer. And my manager at the time, Theresa Hansen, I have to give her credit. She kept saying, you know Minette, I think you need to be a manager. You really have qualities that would make a great manager and I need a manager in my team. And so she pushed me to becoming a manager when I didn't think I wanted to be a manager. And I'm so grateful more than 20 years later for that, because I realized that THAT was what I loved. I love the connection with people and seeing how I could actually help them do better work and help clear paths for them. And so she just sort of forced my hand in that. And I started leading a team of technical writers so I could do the work that they did. But then what happened is I got bored with that after a while and I started looking for other opportunities. And so then I then I found a job within Autodesk leading a team of engineers. And that was really different for me, leading people who are doing things that I couldn't do. And it was a great experience. I led a team that, in fact, when I first joined Platinum Exchange, I was leading a team of seven male engineers. And that was such an interesting challenge for me, being a woman and a non-engineer.

And then over the years, over many years, I kept advancing, taking on new leadership roles, and really just pushing myself out of my comfort zone and leading some big changes within the company. And that finally led me to the last job where I got that VP of engineering practice.

Stacy Mayer: So you mentioned something about. You know, getting asked to become a manager. So this is a common thing for just people in general. Transition from an individual contributor into management. And so they kind of rise up, their a manager, then they become a senior manager because they just get asked to do it. And then there's this thing that happens called executive leadership. And it sounds like some of that transition happened when you moved over to the engineering department, like moving out of your subject matter expertise as a manager and into leading a team as a leader. And so if you could think about those pivotal changes and shifts in your career where you really had to advocate for yourself and really own your leadership abilities versus just being a great subject manager, a subject matter expert who happened to know how to lead people, does that make sense?

Minette Norman: Yeah, and it was I remember there was a huge push that I had to do myself from making that transition. So even when I was managing the team of engineers, I was still a manager, a first line manager. I just had engineers supporting me. But then later I took on larger roles within what was called the localization department at Autodesk. So that's the department responsible for getting everything translated and ready for international markets. And I was taking on bigger roles in that team. And then finally, we had a new VP who wanted to have a new head of localization. And I really wanted that job. And yet it was not handed to me. It was not a tap on the shoulder and given to me on a plate. Instead, I had to fight for that role. And in fact, there was another there was a man who was one of my peers, and we were both basically being considered for that role. And in some ways, it was a competition to see who proved themselves. And so for me, I'm not a cutthroat person. And I didn't want to undermine another person. So for me, what was really important was to paint a picture and demonstrate that I really had a vision for how to lead this department. And that I knew where we needed to go and I had some idea of how to get there. And then I had to really clearly communicate that to the VP that I could do it and that I had the skills to do it and I had the influence to do it. And ultimately I did get that job and I had that job for I think five years. And I did a complete transformation on that department. And that was what gave me the reputation within Autodesk of being a transformational leader. Like someone who could really lead change on a large scale. And so that pivotal moment of having to prove myself and having to fight for myself, I think really led the way to the rest of my career.

Stacy Mayer: That's awesome. I love it. I love that you use the word fight. But then from this place of integrity, right. It's like, yeah, we do have to put ourselves out there in a way that's it's like stepping into the arena. We have to actually say, I'm going to go for this. But it sounds like you did it in a way that was really just advocating your influence, really setting the vision for the team and everything. Was there any other piece that helped you? I'm thinking about maybe getting over your fear of like, oh, gosh, what if I get the job? You know, anything like that?

Minette Norman: I will tell you, I never got over my fear. So that's the truth is, no matter which job I stepped into, each job, I was terrified. And that's the honest truth. People talk about courage and courage isn't about not being scared. It's about pushing forward even when you are scared. So suddenly, I was the head of the localization department. We were under huge scrutiny for how much money we spent and the executives didn't know what we were doing. And so I could have basically had the whole department axed right from under me, including myself, or I could prove that there was value there. So just little by little, I had to really figure out a way to develop value for the company, and that did mean cutting costs and cutting headcount, but also delivering something innovative. And so for me, it was just jumping in with the fear and realizing, OK, you're going to have to push through this fear. You're going to have to enlist allies. I think one of the secrets to my success is that each time I took on a new role was that I didn't have all the brilliant ideas, I'm not the one who generates all the innovation, but I do have a really good way of bringing people in and connecting with people and letting them share their ideas. So I got all my great ideas from other people and I was able to package them up and present them in a way that was digestible.

Stacy Mayer: Yes. If you are listening to this podcast and you're looking to move into an executive role: write that down. You don't have to have all the ideas. You don't have to have the solutions. You just have to go out and find the solutions. And it's huge. It's such a huge, impactful thing that actually helps people get over that fear.

Minette Norman: Yeah. And I think that people have this myth, this mythology of this sort of omniscient leader who knows is all right. And and that's just not true. And I find that bringing together groups of really diverse people who think differently, that's where you get the breakthroughs. I mean, there's a lot of research about that, too. But I really stumbled on that myself when I was trying to come up with these transformations and solutions to gnarly problems. You have to bring in people who think really differently. And then I think the leadership quality that's important is being able to synthesize diverse ideas and make sense out of them and find the patterns and then really be able to communicate the value of those ideas.

Stacy Mayer: Yeah. Being in a position of power as a vice president, how were you able to influence some of that story at Autodesk to really help them and challenge Autodesk to do better, but also just doing that by your own example as well?

Minette Norman: I feel like where I really started was with what I could control myself. And one of the things that I did from the very beginning. The first employee resource group at Autodesk was the Women's Network. And that was, I don't know how many years ago, but I became one of the volunteer mentors in the first version of that. Because, I would think at that point I was maybe a director or a senior director, and I really wanted to help other women. And so that's that's where it started.

And then it just sort of gradually evolved that I was someone who was willing to mentor and I mentored not just women, although I would say it was more women than men. But women would approach me and say: 'I'd love to have you as a mentor.' And I had to limit how many people I mentored at one time just because of the hours in the day. But I also always stayed one of the group mentors for the women's group. And that was really important. And so I felt like I was doing it on a one on one and a group basis.

And then in my last couple of years at Autodesk, they started having executive sponsors for all the ERGs. And at this point there were several of them. And I volunteered to be the executive sponsor for the Autodesk Black Network. And the sad truth is there were no black executives. I think there are still no black executives at Autodesk or at most of the tech companies. It's changing, but it's changing way too slowly. So I volunteered for that. And I have to say that was such an impactful, amazing learning experience for me. Coming with the humility of: 'I don't know what it's like to be a black person in the workplace. All I can bring is my curiosity and my empathy and my willingness to be an ally and an advocate.'.

And so that was really powerful. And as an executive, I would bring back what I was hearing from the women and from my other mentees and from the black network. I would bring that back to the executive staff. And that was what I could do, is share this is going on and you need to be aware of that.

Stacy Mayer: Right. And it sounds like you were really able to synthesize, like you said, even in your own team, those diverse perspectives. So both as...you were actively going out and being a part of these these groups. But then you were also just walking the talk in your own group and becoming a role model like look to the leadership team. I can imagine look look what we can create because we have these diverse ideas.

Minette Norman: Exactly, and, you know, it wasn't always easy. So in my team, I really tried hard to make sure all the voices were heard and that we really did embrace the diverse perspectives. But then I was part of a leadership team of all VPs, and at different times there were a couple of women, but they were never the majority women. It was always more men than women.

And honestly, even all of us being VPs, all of us at being at the same level, we as women struggled to have our voices heard at that leadership team. And we got really good at trying to amplify one another's voices. I had this great peer, Maria, and we would we would kind of tag team: 'Did you hear what Maria just said? Or Maria is trying to say something,' and really be allies to each other.

Stacy Mayer: I noticed that, and this is in my experience with my clients, that when they sort of do this piggybacking ally behavior, right. They actually start supporting and bringing up other people in the room. The other executives don't go, oh, why are they doing that? This person doesn't have any value to share. No, actually, it does the opposite. It shows the other executives in the room: 'Oh, I should have called that person. Oh, you're right. Oh, that is a great idea.'.

I don't even know what people think and the fear of speaking up or what other people are going to think, what the outcome is usually always: 'I'm so glad you shared.'

Minette Norman: Yeah, exactly. In fact, in this keynote that I did yesterday, I shared a story that was really, it was an important moment for me. I was in this leadership meeting. We were having an offsite, I believe, and I was desperately trying to say something like, I'm not usually the one who talks the most in meetings, but there was some point I desperately wanted to make and I literally could not get my voice to be heard. There was just so much discussion and the male voices were louder and deeper. And I think at some point I was raising my hand, trying to speak. And then the guy who was the chief of staff, Rob, who is this wonderful man with a very deep voice, said, hold on. Like he just stopped the conversation. And he said: 'Minette has been trying to say something for ten minutes. Can we please give her the floor?' And I am forever grateful for that, for that ally behavior of just realizing that someone else is trying to speak and making it easier for them so they don't have to embarrass themselves by shouting or standing up or whatever. And so that's something I really encourage everybody to do for one another. And it doesn't have to be male female. It could just be anyone trying to get all the voices heard.

Stacy Mayer: I think it's just a sort of a side note. But we had our kindergarten orientation that was for all the elementary school kids. So there was some fourth graders in the room and there was one child who had his hand up and he was raising his hand and they called on him and he said, I was just trying to tell you that Owen's been trying to speak for a while.

I think, gosh, we're teaching a new generation. Because our executives didn't have these skills. We didn't know that that's what we're supposed to be doing. But now we do. And we can make a change. And then also looking at the younger generations and just thinking about that, I'm like: 'Oh, gosh, I'm really excited for this.'

Minette Norman: That warms my heart and gives me optimism.

Stacy Mayer: It was quite beautiful. I'm very proud of this child I never met.

This is what I challenge my clients to do as far as a vision for themselves as they rise through the ranks of leadership. So, they rise into executive positions where they do have more influence and power, and then they're able to bring other voices out. One of the the side effects to you being a vice president, and you and I talked about this before the call, is you had basically a side job which was mentoring and helping other women and men, it sounds like, at your organization, rise through their own ranks of leadership. So tell us a little bit about that and the feeling that it creates for you. And we talk about like finding your why or your passion or why we do the work that we do. So what was that process like for you? Having this other angle to the work that you did as vice president?

Minette Norman: It became so meaningful for me to be a mentor to so many people because I realized that the mere fact of sitting down for thirty minutes or an hour with someone in my office and having them share their most vulnerable situations. What they were struggling with and asking and trusting me to somehow help them. I found it really powerful and really moving. And also I thought: 'what more important work is there to be doing than this?' This this connection with someone on such a deeply human and vulnerable level.

I didn't always have the magic solution to their problems, but just talking things through with them, maybe giving them some suggestions, but above all, I think it was giving them a safe space to process what they were dealing with. And usually they came up with the solutions based on problems and my own experience. And so I found that sometimes it would eat into my time. And I would think: 'do I really have the bandwidth to take on another mentor to have this meeting today?' And I had this great assistant, Nicole, and she'd say, should I move so-and-so? Should I move so-and-so? The mentees, because it was just a one person thing, not a big meeting. And I would try always to preserve that and keep that on my calendar. Because I just felt like that is such important work.

And, it's funny. That it's today that we're doing this podcast. I got an email this morning from one of my ex mentees at Autodesk. And it's a guy and he's still there. And he said: 'just checking in. Do you have time for a one on one?'.

So I still stay in touch. We're having a call on Friday. I still stay in touch with pretty much all the people that I mentored because we established such a strong bond. And what I will say to anyone who is thinking about mentoring is that I learned way more, I'm sure, than any of my mentees did through mentoring, because that is that is the secret is that the mentor learns as much, if not more, than the mentees.

Stacy Mayer: Just as you were talking, I put on my shoes of the person listening to this podcast. So they are the mentees. They're the person and I talk about this on the podcast all the time. And so it would be great to hear it from the source, the person who actually enjoys mentoring. Is that if you see somebody that you want to be your mentor or that you admire, reach out to them. I tell my clients: 'keep yourselves out of their calendar.' Because they say, 'well, they're too busy. They don't have the time.' And I'm always telling them: 'no, they value mentorship and they will set boundaries around their time. If they don't have the time, they will tell you. But you need to at least reach out to them.' Any advice for the mentees out there that are hesitant to reach out to someone that they admire or are hesitant to get that formal mentorship going for themselves?

Minette Norman: Well, first of all, take the fear out of it, because it's so flattering always to be asked. No one would be upset to be asked. There were times when I really had too many mentees and I couldn't take one on, another one on. And I said: 'I'm really sorry. I can't take another mentee on right now, but let me help you find someone else.'

And another thing is, I had someone that I saw give a speech. She was from the black network and she was a young woman in the organization. And I just reached out to her and said: 'you know, your talk was amazing, totally inspiring. Consider me an ally.'.

And she wrote back and said: 'I'd love to have coffee with you.'

And what was so interesting about that is she didn't say: 'I want you to be a mentor.' And we had coffee and we totally hit it off. And then we didn't have anything regular on the calendar. But every so often she would reach out to me and say, do you have time for a coffee? And we ended up having this really deep relationship. And we're still friends to this day. And it was never maybe officially a mentoring relationship, but I cared about her. She came to me when she was struggling. And I think it developed into a deep friendship. And we're probably more than 30 years apart. But but it was just a powerful connection that we made. And we never called it a mentor mentee relationship.

Stacy Mayer: That's great. I love it. I love it. It's very inspiring.

So speaking of inspiring, you now have ventured out into your own consulting business, so I'd love for you to tell us more about the work that you're taking out into the world now.

Minette Norman: Yeah, so I left Autodesk about a year ago. You said in my bio, I spent 30 years in the software industry. And I really needed to just take time to figure out: 'what do I want to do next? Do I want to join another company?'.

And the answer turned out to be no. But I needed to take the time to really think about what do I want to do? And I realized that the work that I've been doing, that I did at Autodesk around diversity and inclusion, was the most impactful to me and I thought the most impactful to the world right now. I mean, every company is struggling with diversity, inclusion, and belonging. And what does it mean to be an inclusive leader?

And so I decided to start my own business. And I did one engagement earlier this year just before covid hit. And now I'm just starting to do some more work with other companies. And I feel like there's infinite potential with with any kind of a company, it doesn't have to be a tech company, to really look at their leadership, their team dynamics, and figure out how do we become more inclusive? And how do we embrace diversity? If we start to be able to hire a more diverse workforce, how do we make everyone feel that they have a voice here and they can fully participate? So that's the work that I'm starting to do now.

Stacy Mayer: So you talked a little bit about one of the the ways that we can start to be more inclusive, and that was by calling on more diverse voices in the room. Do you have any other suggestions or offers for ways that leaders can be more inclusive and create a more diverse executive leadership team?

Minette Norman: Yeah, I mean, I think that executive teams need to be deliberate in looking within and without for for people that don't look like them and don't act like them and don't talk like them. And it's so tempting when we see this all the time to tap your network or to tap the people you went to school with. And it's it's destructive because you get groupthink, you get the bro culture. I'm so sick of the bro culture in tech. I want to dismantle that.

Stacy Mayer: I just want to say something. I will speak to men, white men, white men that look like the rest of the room, and they are sick of the bro culture. I think that we're all a little bit tired of this and we want to do better.

Minette Norman: Absolutely. One of the things that I've been following, I've been doing a lot of reading since I stopped working in the corporate world. And there have been so many whistleblower stories come out. Whether it's Susan Fowler's book Whistleblower that came out recently from Carta, also from Pinterest, women at very high levels who have been completely mistreated. And I feel like this has got to stop. And it starts with the executive teams. And so they've got to really do a lot of soul searching about who they are having at the table and not tolerate the kinds of behavior that we're seeing and bring in people that are different.

Stacy Mayer: Yeah. So if you are somebody who is different and let's say you're in maybe a senior management position. So similar to you where you were able to rise the ranks into management. You're looking to break into executive leadership. You know that you could have a voice. You know that you could make a powerful difference at your organization. What would be your biggest piece of advice for the actual manager themselves to be able to start advocating for themselves?

Minette Norman: I think it's really important for those people to speak up and let it be known that they have this interest and they have, not only the potential, but the desire to rise further. And find sponsors.

There's this idea of...there's a mentor, but then there's really a sponsor who's someone who will help develop your career. And I think that if you don't have that sponsor, it's important to go actively look for who are the people who can help get my voice heard so that I can advance through the ranks? It's not clear always where you're going to find that sponsor, but it could be a mentor who then takes the step further to say: 'I'm going to really sponsor you getting a stretch assignment or introduce you to someone else.' Because it's very hard to do on your own, honestly.

And I benefited from sponsors along the way. Even the person who hired me as VP of engineering, Amar, he's now CEO of another company. But when he was my boss, I felt like I was in some way under his sponsorship. And when he left the company, it was very clear that something had changed, for you or me and some of the other people that he brought on. I didn't realize it until it wasn't there.

Stacy Mayer: So thinking about the fears again, because I love this. Because I try and think: 'OK, great Minette, thank you. I get a sponsor. But there is that fear that: am I ready? Am I worthy?'

So when you were developing these relationships with a sponsor and being very direct and actually saying, OK, I want to go for something, was there anything that you had to challenge within yourself to be able to have those more direct conversations? Or was it just a matter of: well, I'm going to do it anyway!

Minette Norman: There was some of that: I'm scared and I'm going to do it anyway. But I should probably tell you a story about my getting that VP job because it involved a lot of that self talk.

So when I found out that that job was open...So basically and when I had headed localization, I reported into the head of engineering. And he told me that he was leaving that job to go do something else. So I realized that that job was open and I had the opportunity to raise my hand. And so I did that. And I said: 'I'd really like to apply for this job and maybe I'm not the most obvious candidate.'.

So Amar, who was the SVP at the time, sat down with me and he said: 'Yeah, you have a great track record. I know you've led big changes. I'm a little concerned because...' And he put out two things. He said. 'One, although you've been in engineering for many years, you're not an engineer yourself. And two, you're a woman and it's a boys club.'

And he used those words. He said it's a boys club and you're going to need to break in because the leadership here in engineering is pretty much all guys. And talk about the self talk. I mean, first of all I was furious. I was outraged and I went through all of that.

And then I said: 'well, how are you going to assess whether I can win the Win the boys club?'

And he gave me a 90 day trial. He gave me the job as an acting role for 90 days. So I had to prove myself. And in those 90 days, talk about having to really do a lot of self talk and talking myself off the edge. Because probably 45 days into that, I was ready to give up. Because every time I sort of met with a bunch of engineering leaders and talked to Amar and said: 'I've done this, this and this.' He'd say: 'OK, go talk to these people now. And each time I felt like I had to get the stamp of approval, that you're good enough.'.

And, you know, I did ultimately get the job and ultimately it was a great character building exercise. And I don't hold it against him. He was a wonderful leader. \I felt like he helped me grow. But I do think there's a little bit of that double standard and there's research about this that men get promoted based on potential and women get promoted based on performance. Women and other minorities performance. Past performance that you've got to do the job before you get the title. And so I think that was an example of that.

Stacy Mayer: So this goes back into it, and in a minute I want you to share with us the work that you're doing and how we can connect with you. But this really reminds me of, yes, it's a double standard. But also I think we also have double the work. So when you don't look like the rest of the room, both women and men of color or sexuality or ageism. There's so many different things there that could be happening. You also have to overcome bias, right? So you have to both do a really great job as a leader and overcome bias. And that's what my work as a coach is committed to doing, is helping those individual leaders really learn how to rise through the ranks of leadership and understand their own insecurities and really rise above that so that they do it anyway, so that they can show up in those first 90 days and really knock it out of the park. Because they've got the chops, right? You have the chops. You just had to overcome certain other things that were happening to you.

Minette Norman: Yeah, absolutely. And the bias is everywhere. The other thing is we can't get rid of our own biases, but to be aware of it and then to put systems in place so that we are not judging the men differently than the women and the underrepresented minorities. And so, it's just so important to get that awareness there.

Stacy Mayer: Yeah, for sure. So how can we connect with you if we want to bring you into our organization? What is the work that you're doing right now?

Minette Norman: Yeah, so I have my own consulting business, Minette Norman Consulting. And the URL for my website is www.MinetteNorman.com. You can also book me through the Lavin Agency to do keynote speaking. And now we're doing all virtual keynotes. And so it's easy. You don't even have to fly anyone in anywhere. We're just doing it from home. And so there's a link to my Lavin page on my website. And you can also find me on www.thelavinagency.com.

Stacy Mayer:  Huge. I highly recommend bringing Minette into your organization. She's doing the work. So thank you so much.

Do you have any final words of wisdom as somebody is trying to rise the ranks of executive leadership, really make it to that next level in their career. Anything that you would like to leave us with today?

Minette Norman: Well, you know, there are few things I would say. One is be your authentic best self. Don't try to be someone you're not. And I think that was one of the things that was so important to me that, even if I had to break into the boys club, I wasn't going to ever be like a boy or a man. I wanted to be myself. And I think that's so important that you be yourself and that you be kind and empathetic to people at all levels of the organization and connect with people that you're not comfortable with. I think that's really important as we develop our leadership skills.

And then maybe a couple other things. One is that you're going to rely heavily on your communication skills. So get really good at communicating. And you do have to communicate differently with the c-level than you do with the first line of individual contributors. So get really good and hone your communication skills. Take take a class if you need to. There's so much great online learning now.

And then the third thing, and this is what I think is the superpower for the future leader, is that everyone who aspires to any level of leadership needs to get really good at being an inclusive leader. And I think that will differentiate you going forward. I think this homogeneous leadership style that we have had in corporate America is dying. I hope it's dying a quick death. And really what's going to thrive in the future is the inclusive leader who knows how to not only create a diverse workplace, but make it so that everyone feels that they can thrive and they can bring their true selves. So, get educated on diversity and inclusion. There are a million great books out there. There's good online training through LinkedIn Learning and other other sources. To get educated and become that fabulous, inclusive leader that we all need in the world.

Stacy Mayer: I love it. I'm going back to the beginning of this conversation. In Platinum Exchange, we would have these in person cohorts, actually at Autodesk. Autodesk was one of our sponsors for a long period of time, and we'd have five or six women in the room and they would all say how blessed they were to have you as their mentor and just how important that was to their career, to their self-esteem. To have it role model and leadership, somebody that you could look up to that was being the leader that you wanted to be someday. So thank you so much for all of your work. And I'm really just thrilled about your consulting business and that you're putting this out even further into the world. And I look forward to seeing what's next for you.

Minette Norman: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to talk with you today Stacy.

Stacy Mayer: You too. Thank you.